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The Committee is pleased to welcome Dame Kate Dethridge, Interim Regional Schools Commissioner for North London and the South East region, for a Q and A session at the start of the meeting. The session is to give Dame Dethridge an opportunity to set out the RSC role, its relationship with other statutory bodies and how the post-holder approaches support to academies in areas such as attainment and finance. The Committee also wishes to understand what is in place to ensure transparency and accountability of Multi Academy Trusts.
Minutes:
The Committee welcomed the Interim Regional Schools Commissioner (RSC) for North London and the South-East Region, Dame Kate Dethridge and the Regional Lead, Mr Tom Gregory to the Meeting for a question and answer session regarding the role of the RSC, its relationship with other statutory bodies and how the RSC approached support to academies in areas such as attainment and finance.
By way of introduction the Interim Director gave a brief overview of the work carried out by her office. The Regional Schools Commissioner (RSC) covered North West London and South Central which covered 27 local authority areas from North London to Northampton. The RSC supported schools in difficulty in finding supporting sponsors; supported Multi Academy Trust development, school improvement and school grants. In terms of powers, there main focus was on the schools which were judged inadequate, at the point the RSC became involved to find that school a suitable Trust. The RSC established, developed and maintained relationships and believed in working in collaboration to achieve a best solution for schools and children. In relation to Oxfordshire’s current challenges remained around Recruitment and retention. The Secretary of State was committed support it and a number of different strategies encouraging schools to look at how they got staff into the school and then to retain and advance them, including a new free website for schools to use.
During questions and discussion, the following points were made:
One of the continuing areas of interest to us is you see your relationship with Ofsted and other bodies evolving with your office, is it one of partnership or is it one of operating in different areas?
The relationship we have with the EFSA and Ofsted is very much collaboration and partnership and we work very hard to achieve it. We work very closely with the EFSA, who have responsibility around funding and to some degree safeguarding. We work together sharing information, best practice and guidance, working together to support our trusts and stand alones.
Ofsted are an independent group and have to be, so we ensure there is ‘clear blue water’ between what we do and Ofsted do, our involvement comes after Ofsted have been in to schools and we make sure there is no confusion around that. We do hold many conversations with Ofsted, particularly around the roles which may be coming out of the new expected framework.
There seems to be a lot of ‘mist and fog’ about the expectation on local authorities from Government, and it does seem to be that when there is blame to be laid it is on local authorities and when there is accolade to be given it tends to be others, we seem to pick up more difficult areas when it is politic to do so, do you think there is a need nationally to give greater definitions to expectations and responsibilities?
I can only talk about my relationships with Oxfordshire, and I hope that my colleagues would confirm that we have a very positive and open dialogue. We meet formally 3 or four times a year to discuss what’s happening around maintained schools and trusts and academies and education more broadly. Ofsted also invite us to meetings to discuss issues. I certainly don’t recognise any incidents where we have wanted to attribute blame and I have noticed over the past three years is that we have very honest, open and frank discussions and we all have the best interest of Oxfordshire’s children at heart.
Ofsted is separate and has a random way of selecting which schools to inspect, particularly outstanding schools, but who between yourself and the EFSA, takes the lead in encouraging support and ensuring that attainment is continuously being driven upwards in academies?
It may appear that Ofsted system of inspection is random, but they have a very careful way of deciding who is to be inspected, except from outstanding schools who under the current rules might be inspected but not necessarily. EFSA, broadly have responsibility for finances and ensuring that schools are as they should be and some responsibility around safeguarding. In terms of performance, the responsibility lies with the Trust, but the role of the RSC is to meet regularly with trusts or stand-alone schools whose pupil performance either around progress or attainment is a course for concern.
Do you have a responsibility to inform Ofsted if say a successful school in progress 8 for vulnerable learners is going backwards for the last two to three years or is that the responsibility of trust or stand-alone school?
Ofsted receive the data of pupil performance so they will be well aware of under-performance in a school or trust, but if when we had a meeting with Ofsted we might discuss when there is cause of concern around a three-year trend. We might however report a safeguarding issue to Ofsted.
Where does recruitment and retention fit into this, as we know for instance that school direct salaries have been going down in Secondary schools in the last two to three years. What influence or effective controls do either you or EFSA have, to do anything about recruitment and retention?
The Department for Education more widely, outside of the RSC office and the EFSA are looking at recruitment and retention as a Secretary of State priority, developing strategies and tools to improve the situation. In terms of the powers that the RSC and EFSA have over recruitment and retention, we have limited control over that. What we can do, through our conversations with trusts and schools, is to share best practice. Some trusts have very structed frameworks to see staff advance right from NQT.
We also recognise that when you talk to people who are leaving or thinking of leaving the profession, that work load pays a significant part of the reasons why people are leaving. So, we are really mindful of what we ask for from schools and trusts. When we have our meetings with schools and trusts we always say, please don’t prepare anything additional.
There will be a number of new schools in Oxfordshire over the next few years. Planning teacher supply numbers - how do you ensure that we have good operating practices in Oxfordshire and that we do not have significant gaps in training on certain subjects or primary school teacher training. What role does the RSC play?
The RSC have little or no role in this area, this falls to the DfE more widely. We could report the local authorities concerns around teacher training to the DfE.
In July 2018 the Headteachers Board agreed the merger of the 2 Catholic MACs in Oxfordshire - what is the current situation with this?
That is moving forward, there is a lot of detail and it has to be done very sensitively, but I can you that we are on track to be completed by the 1 September and I can reassure you that there is School Improvement Support in place.
There was an expectation at the other County Council that Catholic Aided Schools would be subsumed by the new MAC is that part of the timescale that you have indicated?
We would want to work closely with the MAC to ensure anything that they do would be sustainable in the long term and that that the way it is being done is best for the schools involved.
How far are you aware of schools struggling financially, and what are the plans to support them? Such as reducing their working week or asking donations from parents.
When we look at our schools and trusts we see a mixed picture, some schools and some trusts are manging reasonably well and some are finding it more challenging. We need to do all we can to support trusts and schools to make sure that they are in the position to give the best service to their children. For instance, the EFSA have put a lot of support in place. There is the schools resource management programme that brings together a range of different tools to support schools and trusts, there is the financial benchmarking service, so that schools can see their spend and compare it to other schools and trusts all of which are free to use. We have the list of agencies that offer recommended deals for efficiencies in purchasing, and there is a teacher vacancy list which schools can use for free and save money on recruitment.
We have School Management Resource Advisors that can come into schools to spend time alongside staff seeing if there are areas where savings or efficiencies could be made and evidence is that schools using that service have found it extremely useful.
Schools closing early - we would be uncomfortable with schools doing anything that may see children or families disadvantaged and so we would want to have conversations with schools suggesting something like that to understand it.
Do you think that the RSC should work with the EFSA to look at three-year balanced budgets as our understanding is that schools do ok in year one, but by year three the school is unrecognisable due to the level of cuts. Are you aware of trends within schools of moving revenue into capital to do sizable works within schools taking away from children’s everyday ‘bread and butter money’?
We certainly look at their budget planning and have conversations to see if there is any kind of deficit that they see coming or is in place and part of the reason we look at 3 years is so that we can be in position to support the school or trust as soon as possible. The EFSA come to the trust business meetings so that they are also in place to have the conversations with the trusts.
If trusts are putting in information that suggests they are struggling moving forward that is when we would meet with them.
Transferred revenue to capital – How much of a problem is it of schools transferring money that comes in for revenue to a reserved capital for future projects?
I am not in a position to comment on that at this stage, but I am happy to take your question back to the EFSA and get you an answer.
With schools struggling to find the 1% for the increased salary award, what's the likelihood for increased funding for the higher employer contribution to the teachers' pension scheme?
Unfortunately, this is something that sits outside of the RSC remit, what we are more than willing to do is to raise your concern with the appropriate department.
Given the rules about closing rural schools, what's the thinking within RSC about deficit budgets in small rural primary schools and the way forward?
We can’t comment on maintained schools that’s a policy issue for local authorities, but if it was an academy we would be working very closely with the trust if they had indicated there was any deficit.
There is clearly a policy issue here for an authority like Oxfordshire, there is a very large number of community based rural primary schools in a time when the birth rate is beginning to decline and the housing rate is going through very unusual patterns. The fact that some of these are academies, but the majority are maintained schools, causes a problem, unless somebody can take the lead to ensure that schools in the primary sector are represented going forward in their communities. Can you comment on how that policy should be developed in a mixed economy?
You do have many rural areas with very small primary schools, often with mix year teaching. What is really important here is to ask the question “is this a going concern; is it viable; can it work on the money you are receiving in terms of: can you afford to pay all the staff you need to support the school; can you work with the income that you have and if the answer is no, then I think there are some potentially very difficult decisions that need to be made about whether or not a local authority or academy trust can support a small school. These are very difficult decisions, but ones that need to be made if the money just isn’t there.
We recognise that small rural primary schools are not there just to educate children, they’re often the heart of the community such as shops or cinemas, we absolutely recognise their position in the community.
The DfE has a policy and a long list of schools with presumption against closure, many of which are in Oxfordshire. How does the RSC advise the academy to do deal with that? Many of our small rural schools are facing with financial unviability.
In trusts what we are particularly looking at, we are not just looking at one small school, we are often looking at a collection of 20 to 30 small schools in any trust or across 4 or 5 trusts, what we are looking at is how the trusts ensure that the schools remain viable.
There are loads of innovative measures that the trusts are using such as Executive Headships to cut costs of providing a head teacher at every school. I recognise that parents like to see a head at a school, but if that is not viable schools need to look at ways of sharing staff across schools, to using collective bargaining powers with external providers to drive down cost. This is where our SRMA are incredibly useful in going into trusts.
It seems to me we are in a position where the RSC and the local authority have an area of mutual interest and concern and do you think coming together on this to have a very real debate on how this can be addressed with a view to maintaining these schools in their communities would be a good idea, would you make a commitment to that?
I would certainly make a commitment to continuing the dialogue and perhaps talking to some people in the department who know more about this than we do about small rural school policy. We certainly, in this local authority have examples of trusts that take in small rural schools and do it very well and are finally efficient. We are very happy to collaborate and share those examples with you.
MATs - enhanced funding/staffing helps schools out of Special Measures, but when this is done, staff are often lost due to lower funding. What is the RSC thinking on this issue?
What a MAT will receive, when taking on an inadequate school, is a sponsor grant to enable them to support the school, I don’t recognise what you are saying as an issue. How the trust uses the grant is up to them, if they were using that for recruitment they would sustain that over the long term.
Typically, the money is offered to support the staff that are already in the school to improve as opposed to putting more teachers in and the removing them.
Maths KS2 progress data is a limiting factor in Oxfordshire schools; how could the RSC support us / work with us to improve this?
That trend in data is something we would pick up with schools and trusts when we meet them, if we saw any kind of underperformance in any subject we would discuss with them what they do; what kind of strategies they had in place and how they collaborated with other people to find best practice.
Do you have any examples of good practice?
We worked with North Hamptonshire, and in particular their teaching schools to develop a day for teachers from academies and maintained schools to come together to look at best practice and what could be done. What we expect from our trusts is that they are constantly restless, thinking about what could be done better and a great place to start is the Education Down Foundation which is a free website, with a section called ‘what works well’ where there is lots of information and research to do with primary and secondary education.
The teaching school association work collaboratively and that is the kind of thing they would look at.
Had you notice our maths was not good?
We look at the data alongside the local authority.
Regulations mean that the county council has responsibility for pupil place planning, but no powers, which has lately resulted in a delayed new school funding agreement and unnecessary worry for parents, and work for officers. Oxfordshire has 5 new schools due to open in 2020; how can you support Authorities in ensuring the process moves forward in time?
That comes back again to working very collaboratively, and if appeared that on either side there was a problem, we would do whatever we could do to ensure that parents were not upset and that new provision opened smoothly and on time, drawing on past experience.
We can’t be alone in authorities that fall within your Region, and what I would ask you to do is join with us in telling government that the Regulations within this area need to be looked at seriously and immediately, so that new schools’ plans can be put in place, rather than being side lined by the regulations. It has happened with the Swan School and we are fearful of it happening again in the future.
If you send us a note, we can definitely action that.
Will the RSC suggest to SofS to set up a direct whistleblowing line so staff can report financial and other maladministration within all academies and MATs including stand-alones?
We currently have a system, where the EFSA can be and are contacted on such things, our concern is that it is not known about or used widely enough. We also at the RSC office have a mailbox that can be used for concerns such as that, but I am happy to take it back, but we do already have that function in place, but if it is not widely enough known about, we will raise that with the EFSA.
How would you see that being made known?
For academies and stand alone we have a newsletter to all our trusts and schools, so it could be included in that, but I will raise it with the EFSA and give some thought to how we could make more people aware.
How does the RSC support inclusion and tackle high exclusions?
Inclusion is very important to us and is high up on our Agenda. If there are any examples of where we have it reported to us, that any trust or school is not as inclusive as it ought to be, or indeed there are high exclusions, that is something we would raise with the school or trust.
In terms of the meetings we have with the trusts and schools, we always do look at things such as exclusion rates, and if they seem high, it might be that there is good reason for that, but we would certainly want to know and we would raise it with them.
When we meet with local authorities, 3 times a year, if they have any anecdotal evidence of schools or trusts not behaving as they should, then they always raise it with us and then we take that forward.
Where do you think Oxfordshire ranks with other county authorities within the Region on exclusions, particularly in the secondary sector?
I would not be able to give you that information off the top of my head now, but I am happy to provide you with a written answer.
Have you noticed any particular causes for high exclusions in the schools you have been working with, we are concerned here about child exploitation?
We haven’t looked in detail at that, but that is certainly something that I would want to find out more about, so we will add it to the Agenda for our next local authority meeting.
Following the question and answer session, the Chairman thanked Dame Kate Ethridge and Mr Gregory for their attendance and openness and stressed that the Committee was keen to maintain the good working relationship established between the County Council and the Regional Commissioner’s Office.